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Travel Redefined

Do you have loyalty towards an airline in order to increase your traveling perks and score some free flights? Well then you’re tuning in to the right episode to hear from Mark Ross-Smith about the future of airline loyalty programs.

Sarah Dandashy (00:04):

It is no secret that the travel industry has undergone some major changes in the past few years, and even though it is back and booming, so much of why and how we travel has changed. Welcome to TRAVEL redefined. I’m Sarah Dandashy and I’m your host. And I’m excited to talk to thought leaders in the hospitality and travel space for insight on the future of travel.

Welcome back to another episode of TRAVEL redefined where we’re speaking to individuals in different elements of the travel and hospitality space, learning from what they’re seeing, what they’re doing, and hopefully, taking tools from that and implementing it into our respective businesses. So today’s guest is… I’m personally very excited about having this conversation and I know that everybody’s going to be really into this. So we’ve got Mark Ross-Smith, who is the CEO of StatusMatch, as well as the author/founder of the industry site Travel Data Daily. Basically, he is the loyalty programs guru. I’m sure he’s going to be like, “Wait, oh no, why did you say all that at the beginning?” I know, bar is set high.

But we’re definitely going to talk a lot about loyalty programs, what we need to be thinking, especially in the airline industry, but I think it would also be interesting to see how that might even apply into the hotel space as well too. So without further ado, Mark, thank you so much for joining me today.

Mark Ross-Smith (01:32):

Sarah, it’s fabulous to be here. It’s a very generous introduction, I will say.

Sarah Dandashy (01:37):

I had a feeling you were going to be like, “Oh, she used the G word, guru, oh, oh. Oh, no.” But I mean, I’m really excited because I know that you have access to a lot of interesting data and insight, and I know it’s something that all of us, whether we’re flying, whether we work in the airline industry or even on the flip side or even in the hospitality, hotel space, can learn a lot from it as well too.

So why don’t we go ahead and bring everybody up to speed? And do you mind just sharing a little bit about your background? You’ve got these two companies, so they kind of go hand in hand. Tell us a little bit about your background and then, how you started Travel Data Daily and then, ultimately, StatusMatch and yeah, would love to hear more of that.

Mark Ross-Smith (02:23):

Sure. So I’m a tech entrepreneur, I think, at heart. I love technology. I love building and creating things, and that’s kind of where it all started. I was a bit younger, I actually had a social network that I’d created many years ago, I sold that about 10 years ago. And when I was running that, I was flying around the world just doing your thing.

And kind of at the end of that, I thought, “How do I get free airline tickets? I’m spending all this money on travel.” When you’re spending five, 10, 15,000 bucks to go from, I was living in Australia at the time, to go to the US or Europe kind of thing, and I see some friends in the industry and they’re like, “Oh yeah, I went to Fiji for the weekend. It was a hundred bucks in business class.” I’m like, “How do I get some of that? I’m totally down for cheap premium travel.” So how-

Sarah Dandashy (03:15):

Who isn’t?

Mark Ross-Smith (03:17):

It’s at the back of mind of everyone I think.

Sarah Dandashy (03:19):


Mark Ross-Smith (03:21):

And so, I thought, how do I get into this business? And so, I’d sort of had all this experience build up through my social network, which was in the telco business at the time. And I thought, there’s a lot that telcos do pretty well that, I think, airlines could learn from and so, that’s where Travel Data Daily was born. I started just trying to get ideas out there in the world to help improve the travel experience and travel loyalty programs because my semi-flowed logic was if I could just promote these ideas and get them out there, then all these airline people or hotel people will see these ideas, they’ll implement into their loyalty programs and that will benefit me, ultimately, as a traveler. Yeah.

Sarah Dandashy (04:00):


Mark Ross-Smith (04:01):

It kind of worked. I started publishing these articles, got a bit of traction and then, some industry event people started seeing them and they say, “Hey, you know what? You want to come to our event? Can you be on a panel?” Just really small grade kind of stuff. I said, “Yes.” And what happened is I started building this bit of a profile. Right. Now, keep in mind, I’d sold my business at the time, basically unemployed, right?

Sarah Dandashy (04:25):


Mark Ross-Smith (04:25):

I mean, I had a bit of money, but effectively, not much, so I’m trying to figure out what I’m going to do in life next. Yeah. So I’m going to all these industry events, start getting invited to more and more and more of them. And eventually, that led to, one day someone said, “Do you want to work at Malaysia Airlines? Do you want to run the loyalty program for the airline?” Just out of the blue. And I’d never worked for an airline or a hotel or in this at all. And suddenly, they’re like, “Do you want this pretty senior role?” I’m like, “Well, not really. I kind of like my life of just cruising around right now.” Anyway, I took the job. I thought, it’s not every day you get offered this kind of thing. Moved to Malaysia. And that was a fantastic experience. And that was really being pushed into the deep end of the travel industry. And obviously, I started getting cheap flights out of that.

So that’s kind of how I got into the industry, that’s how Travel Data Daily sort of came out. I travel still a lot today, I still publish heaps of stuff on there about how airlines, hotels can monetize loyalty programs, how to make money out of data, how to just improve stuff really. And it’s all free. I don’t monetize it so anyone can read it. I mean, check it out right now, It’s just get ideas because ultimately, the same principle I had back then applies today, if I can improve or get these ideas out there, then people in the industry can pick it up and just apply it to however it makes sense in their business today, which ultimately benefits the millions of global travelers around the world.

Sarah Dandashy (05:56):

Oh, totally, totally. And anybody that flies and is going anywhere, I mean, we get it, we see a bit of the system, we know that it needs to make sense, but let’s talk about that a little bit more. So the loyalty program world, all right, I mean, it is an industry in and of itself. I’m sure I’ve even been able to see, I mean, there are shifts happening right now. So what are you seeing? What’s working, what isn’t? What’s changing? I know that’s a lot of questions, but want to get like a zoomed out perspective as far as what’s happening in the loyalty program world and bring everybody up to speed with that.

Mark Ross-Smith (06:39):

So fortunately, travel loyalty programs are much more interesting than non-travel loyalty programs. Since-

Sarah Dandashy (06:46):

I would think so.

Mark Ross-Smith (06:47):

Just a bit. So since about 2020, there’s been a spotlight on travel loyalty programs, especially in airline. What the world has really seen is that the value of airline loyalty programs, you think like America and United Delta, think these guys are guys, the value as a separate business is worth more than the entire airline itself. And in fact, just a few weeks ago, Spirit Airlines raised, I think it was a billion dollars, a new loan, based on the valuation of their loyalty program.

Sarah Dandashy (07:19):


Mark Ross-Smith (07:20):

So the loyalty program for Spirit is valued at 4.2 billion, which is about 40 times, 45 times revenue, which is on the high side. But what’s interesting is the market capitalization of the entire Spirit Airlines company is only 2.3 billion. So what this means, it values the airline operations at about negative 1.9 billion. So the airline loyalty is kind of up here somewhere, airline’s kind of down here somewhere in terms of valuation.

And so, what we’re seeing is a shift in value creation across the ecosystem away from the core travel business and into the loyalty business. And that kind of raises some questions, this applies to hotels as well, to some degree, are they really airlines these days or are they marketing companies that have an airline division? Right.

Sarah Dandashy (08:18):

Interesting. Okay.

Mark Ross-Smith (08:19):

I think there’s a dynamic shift here where the loyalty programs are so valued, they bring so much value to the group. Actually, I wrote an article for Travel Data Daily, about how loyalty is really a C level role. It shouldn’t be like a head of loyalty or VP of loyalty, it should be a chief loyalty officer, and they show, have a seat on the board because loyalty brings so much value to the table, it’s kind of outsized value versus the rest of the company.

You need them both. There is a dynamic there where they need each other. But if you’ve got a choice, do you want a dollar profit in an airline, which on the market is worth probably six to $8 or a dollar profit in loyalty program, which in Spirit’s case is worth 40, $45, I know where I want to push my profit and it’s straight to the loyalty programs, it’s not to the airline because you can be able to get more value, be able to leverage it more on the market, be able to raise funds, whatever you want to do with it.

So the big thing in travel loyalty programs right now is there’s been this spotlight on the business side of it, less so on what we’ll call the customer side of it. And this is a really good thing in some ways because the more loyalty program’s worth, the more they can invest in the customer to get even more. You know what I mean? They can go out and buy new planes, they can go buy all this crazy new stuff, which ultimately benefits everyone again.

Sarah Dandashy (09:49):

Totally. Interesting. I think about it because it’s like I am very loyal to a specific airline and it’s like gamified it for me in aspects and it’s like I’m getting towards the end of the year and it’s like, “Okay, what do I need to make sure that I get and hit or spend or do so that I secure my status for the next year in whatever category, the highest category possible?” So I know that a lot of people understand this, especially if you’re traveling so much, be it for business or leisure, but want to hear more about this. So we’re talking about just airline status and so, it seems, I guess, some of the world’s top travelers are going to actually lose their Elite status in the next couple of months. Why is that? And then, how is that going to affect airline global revenue?

Mark Ross-Smith (10:44):

So like yourself, Sarah, there’s a lot of people out there that get to the end of the year, they log into their account and they see, “Damn, I know I need to do four, five, six, 10 more flights to keep my Platinum, whatever status.” And this is kind of, generally, what we call pre-pandemic days, it’s been a bit of a rush. It’s like, “Oh, I think I need a meeting in New York next week,” or, “We need a team conference in New Zealand and we all have to fly business class.” It’s like why all these companies got all these events at the end of the year, it’s so bizarre, isn’t it? Because everyone’s trying to keep their loyalty status.

Sarah Dandashy (11:23):


Mark Ross-Smith (11:23):


Sarah Dandashy (11:24):


Mark Ross-Smith (11:26):

I mean, God forbid, you have to line up with everyone else when you bought the aircraft, right?

Sarah Dandashy (11:31):

I mean, it’s the perks, so you have to say it’s all the perks.

Mark Ross-Smith (11:35):

To your point, if you’ve got Elite status in airline, you’re like a Silver, Gold or something like that or higher, you’re in the top 5% of their loyalty members of the airline or hotel. And these 5% of people specifically in premium airlines, they contribute somewhere between 30 and 50% of revenue to airlines today.

Sarah Dandashy (11:55):


Mark Ross-Smith (11:55):

So as a group, these are the most valuable customers airlines can have. And obviously, airlines want to keep these people, they want to keep them spending. So in 2020 when the world was locked down, a lot of people just couldn’t travel to the extent they used to and so, airlines just said, “We’ll extend your status for free because we reckon you’re loyal to us, we’re loyal to you.” That was the idea. And it was a nice message at the time. And then, last year, they did the same thing. They recognized that most of the world was still borders closed or it was just a bit difficult still in a lot of places. Some more open and free than others.

And so, now we’re coming to the end of all this and airlines are looking at it going, “Well, we can’t really extend people’s status for free again because you can travel now.” Well, most people can travel to most places. And so, the idea is if we extend it for free, then it could actually hurt the internal metrics now. So now, actually, internally, there’s a position where it makes sense not to extend. And so, we’ve got people that had Elite status at the end of 2019 have still got that same status or higher today. And so, the number of people that have status is bloated effectively. That’s why we’re seeing lines to get into airline lounges. That’s why we’re seeing the priority lines when you go board the aircraft are really long because it’s arguably a lot, there’s a lot more people that can access that now than used to be.

And so, there’s what I’m calling a status cliff, which is coming early next year and that’s where there’s a lot of people due for a downgrade in status. And this is going to hurt the industry a bit, well, actually, this is going to hurt specific airlines because I estimate there’s about 20, 25 million people globally that are due for a downgrade, which represents nearly half of all Elite members. So this is across airline, hotel, car rental, cruise, everything. Yeah? You got to think about it, today you’ve got your you Platinum status, you got lounge access, you got a priority boarding, first class check-in, all this kind of thing, and then, tomorrow the airline says, “Sorry, you didn’t fly enough. Too bad. So sad.” They downgrade you to nothing.

You got to think, what goes through your mind at that point? Right. In some ways, it’s your fault you didn’t keep your status because you didn’t fly, yeah, so there’s that. But then, there’s the also, “Well, I’m still flying, I’m just not flying to the point I used to.” Right? So you’re still valuable, you’re just not as valuable in their eyes today as you used to be. Right?

So in your mind, and a lot of people, we’ve done surveys on this asking people what they’re going to do because this is a big, unknown black box out there, what’s going to happen? And best guess so far is, a lot of people, the logic is, “Screw the airline. I’m going to fly based on price, on network. I’m not going to chase status anymore.” They’re going to kind of disconnect from premium loyalty. “I’m going to ditch the credit card. Best flight of the day. I’m just going to chase price.” Because the logic is, “The airline’s not loyal to me,” even though they were, “I’m not going to be loyal to it. I’m just going to fly based on whatever else. Prices are high anyway, it makes sense to reassess where I am.”

What we are seeing is most people are in that bucket. And so, this is pretty scary for airlines if you think about it because you’ve got these people that are due for downgrade is somewhere between 10, 15% of top line revenue for airlines, so it’s at risk today. There will be what I’m calling a share shift. So they might shift from your big carriers to a low-cost carrier kind of thing, which just fuels other airlines. So I think premium airlines have a pretty big job on their hands. How do you retain these people in a way that makes sense without just giving them free candy for life?

Sarah Dandashy (15:58):

Yeah, you can’t, of course.

Mark Ross-Smith (16:00):

I mean, anyone’s who’s got kids, if you go give your candy every day, you know how that pans out, and it’s not good.

Sarah Dandashy (16:06):

No, definitely not. Definitely not. Well, again, it’s like you bring up interesting point. And there’s also the element of the people that are relying on their loyalty to get those upgrades as opposed to maybe necessarily just paying more. So I’m sure that that’s also an element of what airlines are taking into consideration. But want to talk a little bit more about loyalty program success, what does this look like? Airline loyalty programs, what metrics should they be using to effectively measure loyalty?

Mark Ross-Smith (16:47):

Clearly not downgrading half your members is probably a good start.

Sarah Dandashy (16:49):

Yeah, right.

Mark Ross-Smith (16:51):

It’s going to have a bit of impact, just maybe.

Sarah Dandashy (16:53):


Mark Ross-Smith (16:56):

We’ll find out, yeah. I mean, the big sort of what we call the Golden metrics of how airlines look at loyalty is your share of wallet… I’ll explain that in a second. … customer lifetime value and then, generally, overall profitability of the program. These are kind of the top metrics that are kind of looked at, and there’s a bunch. It’s kind of like a cockpit of an airline, you see all these dials and gauges and displays and stuff. And first time you look at it you go, “Wow, this is pretty cool. There’s a lot of stuff.” That’s kind of what airline loyalty is, you’ve got all these little ways to measure things, but there’s one or two that kind of stand out that say things are healthy. So just like in an airline, the plane’s flying, you can have low oil pressure on something over here, same with loyalty, you can have some metric that is not that great, but if the air speed’s okay, well, share of wallet in this case, is good, then it could be okay overall. Like a balanced scorecard.

So quickly, share of wallet is all about how loyal a customer actually is to your brand. So how much of their spend is going towards your brand versus going to other brands. And the goal is to get to a hundred percent. If you have a hundred percent share of wallet, all your money is going to brand A, right, then that’s great. So that might mean the hundred percent for you means two flights a year just to go visit grandma twice a year and that’s it. You’re loyal to the brand. They’re not going to get any more money out of you because that’s what you do.

Whereas your cousin Jane over there, she’s doing 200 flights a year, but a hundred flights with airline A, a hundred flights with airline B. So airline A is getting 50% share of wallet, so she’s actually less loyal even though she’s worth more as a customer. So what it means is even though the airline looks at Jane and goes, she’s a Super VIP Diamond Elite Titanium member, great member, but what they don’t know if they’re not tracking this is that could be doubled in value. So therefore, with a 50% share of wallet with Jane, you should start focusing more of the CR efforts on her to improve that, again, second metric, customer lifetime value. So kind of changes the way that you automate some of the marketing once you have these kind of metrics that you’re tracking in the backend there.

Sarah Dandashy (19:23):

And forgive me for not knowing, I mean, I don’t know this, do airlines have access to be able to share that data or no?

Mark Ross-Smith (19:31):

They can get it. They can.

Sarah Dandashy (19:31):

They can, yeah. Okay.

Mark Ross-Smith (19:31):

Not too difficult. There’s a bunch of ways they can get it, the most common way is using credit card data.

Sarah Dandashy (19:39):

Oh, got it. Yeah. Which would makes sense. Yeah, obviously.

Mark Ross-Smith (19:42):

Start see where you spend. Obviously, I was in telco industry for some time, location data, most telcos sell it in some fashion or another. Like your mobile phone, every two seconds, it ping probably two or three towers at a time. It basically says, “I’m over here. I’m over here. I’m over here.” Just keeps saying that, so that when I call you on the phone, it that it knows how to route the call, it knows which tower to send it to and that tower knows where you are. So that’s [inaudible 00:20:12]. And this is old technology, right?

Sarah Dandashy (20:13):

Oh, yeah, of course.

Mark Ross-Smith (20:14):

And then, telco has realized they could make a bit of money out of cell of this data.

Sarah Dandashy (20:18):

Interesting. Okay, so let’s talk about data a little bit. So airlines have access, certainly, to a lot of their own passenger data. But then, the question is, I mean, we’re kind of seeing a little bit of twofold in this, judging by what you were just saying, but are airlines and their loyalty programs actually leveraging their data to their advantage or maybe to the fullest extent that they could be?

Mark Ross-Smith (20:42):

So, got a lot on there about this. And if you read some of my earlier articles, I talk about how airlines were doing a bunch of this machine learning AI, like all this and then, how they were doing it, propensity modeling, and there is a bunch of that that goes on. But I had an interesting experience the other day that just totally screwed my head, I’ll share with you.

So I book this flight on a pretty well-known airline. And I’m sort of halfway directly through the airline website, I’m halfway through the process. And I’m a Gold member with this airline, so I get free seat selection, I get the free bags, I get lounge access for free, I get a bunch of things. There’s this page and it says you can pay for seat selection now, right? I’m like, “Well, hang on, I get that for free. Why are you hitting me up to pay for this? This is a bit odd.”

And then, under that, it said, “Do you want to buy lounge access?” I’m together with my five-year-old daughter. And it said, “Do you want to buy lounge access for your five-year-old daughter?” I thought, “Hang on a sec, I get free lounge access, kids are not considered guests in lounge, so I get this for free. Why are you displaying this to me on the site. Of all the things you could be trying to sell me at this point, you’re trying to sell me something that I get for free and you know it because at the top it says, “Welcome, Mark, Gold member.””

So they know this already, right? It’s kind of personalization 101. Yeah. And I just got thinking, you could show me something else on this screen, something else that I would pay for. How about pay an extra hundred bucks and get like a concierge service on your flight? Someone will escort you from check-in to the gate or something. It could have been a million different… Earn triple miles on this flight, pay an extra $52. It could have been a million different things and they chose to put something there that is entirely irrelevant to me because I get this already as a Gold member, right?

Sarah Dandashy (22:38):


Mark Ross-Smith (22:38):

And so, putting my data loyalty hat on here, I’m thinking, the airlines missing revenue here.

Sarah Dandashy (22:45):

Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Mark Ross-Smith (22:48):

This is a big brand too. This is not a small airline like Air Senegal or something, this is a big airline in a big alliance that flies a lot of routes.

Sarah Dandashy (22:58):


Mark Ross-Smith (22:59):

So just as I think airlines are doing a pretty good job with predicting what people are going to click on and what emails they’re going to open in the loyalty space, with all this great modeling, machine learning stuff because they do do some cool stuff there, just as I think they’ve got that right, this is the most basic thing on the customer frontend-facing website, they just totally drop the ball on, I think.

Sarah Dandashy (23:24):

Yeah, no, of course. Well, I mean, it is a tossup and again, it’s like they might be sitting on a mound of information, but how they’re implementing it is another story. Or they might be implementing it well in one area but not another area, which is fascinating.

So how are airlines actually inspiring new loyalty and travelers or loyalty in new travelers I should probably say? How are they evolving and trying to continue to keep people enticed and interested, especially considering that we’re kind of going to lose a lot of people that have status?

Mark Ross-Smith (24:01):

That’s true. There’s a lot of people due for downgrade. But in saying that, there’s a lot of people traveling as well right now. Airlines and hotels, some markets are totally creaming, they make a lot of money right now. So they’re doing something right. And there’s less business travel today than there was, say, three years ago. And the type of person traveling today, the profiles looks a little bit different. And so, to your point, I think this is the chance to get new people into the loyalty program that may have never have thought about it before.

So the loyalty program, generally, they don’t change that much, the structure, earn this many miles, when you do this, you get this, when you hit this status, you get these 10 perks kind of thing. And that was designed years we’ll call pre-pandemic, the sort of rules and what that looked like was designed then and it was designed for the travelers at that time. All right. The typical traveler today has changed a little bit, it’s a more leisure travel, visiting friends, relatives, just traveling for other stuff. You fly in the morning, have a meeting, fly back in the afternoon, there’s less of that these days in most places, well, it’s still there, just less.

And so, the question is should the loyalty program change to reflect the new type of traveler today? And if it does change, what would that look like? So in airlines specifically, we’re seeing that there’s a strong focus on the co-brand credit cards, so that’s like the airline branded credit card that you have and the miles that they earn. And airlines make a lot of money selling these things. So in some ways, it’s about more of a card program than a loyalty program for these types of travelers.

Sarah Dandashy (26:01):

Yeah, interesting. And it makes sense. I mean, again, we’re all kind of seeing it. Okay, I have to ask you a question because I’m curious to see. I ask every single one of my guests this question, so there’s no right or wrong answers, it’s just everybody has a bit of a different perspective. Considering the name of the show being TRAVEL redefined, how do you see travel being redefined?

Mark Ross-Smith (26:24):

How do I see travel being redefined? So in some ways, I don’t think it will be redefined because in my view, travel’s ingrained in our DNA as you know. So I think, on some level, we all want to see new things, visit new places, meet new people, explore the world, see the wonders, and look at travel demand today it’s off the charts, it’s pretty expensive in some place-

Sarah Dandashy (00:00):


Mark Ross-Smith (26:51):

… to fly right now, right? And I think, what we’re seeing is people are craving for these experiences and new feelings. And we realized in the last few years that life can be pretty short and we need to get out there. We want to get out there, we want to explore the world, we want to see new things, we want to try new foods, we want to visit the pyramids, we want to see the Great Barrier Reef, we want to take a selfie at the Taj Mahal, we want to go do these things because we can.

And I think the travel industry, in general, is a wonderful place to be in right now because of that. It’s never going away. People always going to want to go and see and visit and do new things. And I think that’s part of the magic of this industry is that innate desire we have to want to go out there and do these things, is perhaps only getting stronger now than it ever has before in history.

Sarah Dandashy (27:44):

Completely agree. And it is interesting. I like how you say that as well too because I mean, again, it is something that is so much a part of our DNA. And this is why this conversation is so interesting right now, especially after what we’ve been through in the past couple of years. It certainly has changed our perspective. So love that answer, love that answer.

Well, in wrapping up, this has been such a great conversation and I mean, it’s getting my brain thinking about all different things in regards to loyalty programs, what I need to be doing, what next year will probably look like. But for those that are tuning in and maybe want to find out more about your company’s specifically, probably StatusMatch, for example, what are you looking at? What might be new in the pipeline for those that are tuning in so that they can keep their eyes peeled for that?

Mark Ross-Smith (28:39):

So for the 50% of people Elite status out there that are about to be downgraded, obviously, sign up at and we’ll let you know if there’s StatusMatch opportunities available. And what that means is we might be able to get your Gold status with a new airline, for example. So you might fly with a new airline, but you might keep those perks that you are kind of used to and you don’t want to give up so easily.

So we’re obviously working with big brand hotels and airlines on helping them acquire new customers through that method, knowing that there’s a bunch of people going to be downgraded. So at least these airlines, they’re on the offense right now, best defense is good offense. So they’re out there trying to get new customers and we are on the forefront of that, helping them acquire these new customers in new and innovative ways that we are set up to do that and we’re helping them do a pretty good job of that. So check out, that’ll help alleviate some of the pain, give your lifeline if you’ve got status with an [inaudible 00:29:41] today.

Sarah Dandashy (29:42):

Absolutely. No, we’ll make sure that all of the details are in the show notes, and that’s great, so that they can find out more, obviously, about StatusMatch, also, get some great updates from Travel Data Daily, and then, also connect with you, presumably on LinkedIn or wherever. So we’ll make sure all those details are in the show notes. So Mark, this has been such a great conversation, so thank you, really appreciate it. And also, appreciate you tuning in from the other side of the world as well too, so that’s been really great. So thank you.

Mark Ross-Smith (30:14):

This has been a fun conversation. Thanks Sarah. Appreciate it.

Sarah Dandashy (30:17):

Appreciate it. Well, for everybody that’s tuning in, thank you guys for joining us this week. We’ll have all the details in the show notes. And be sure to stay tuned for another episode next week.

Well, there you have it. Thank you for tuning in to TRAVEL redefined. Hopefully, you’ve taken away something from this week’s guest and that you too are excited to see how travel is evolving. Don’t forget to leave a review if you enjoyed today’s episode and subscribe so that you won’t miss out on the amazing conversations to come. And until next time, keep on traveling.